Free Speech

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Here are several interviews which demonstrate the need for free speech.

Arrest of Rumeysa Ozturk.
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my eyes are magnetically attracted to the word “holocaust” because it’s a subject i’ve studied on and off for 20+ years

regarding the book, Maus, it’s up to the Tennessee school board to decide whether it’s appropriate, just like it’s up to a parent what their kids may or may not watch on the boob-tube and, lord knows, virtually anything that’s pro-holocaust/pro-Israel is pushed incessantly in every school across the entire U.S. and every corner of society, so if they banned it, i’d wager there was a legit reason

no offense whatsoever to you Mike, but i think this was a poor example of the suppression of free speech because i’m quite sure there’s no shortage of holocaust propaganda at that TN school, lest they risk losing their funding

more importantly, anyone that researches “the holocaust” (a word i usually refuse to capitalize because it isn’t deserving of a title) with an open mind will very quickly discover that there is exactly zero creditable evidence of homicidal gas chambers being employed by the Germans during WW2, be they of the hydrogen cyanide or diesel exhaust variety (the latter claim is particularly pathetic)

facts are not anti-semetic and, frankly, i’m sick to death of people making excuses for a parasitic, genocidal state that generates sympathy and oodles of cash based on a fabrication

if anyone finds fault in my comments, feel free to open a friendly dialog - i don’t claim to be perfect and am always open to corrections

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I think the Holocaust is a historical fact. I don’t think Jews deserve to be discriminated against or attacked. With respect to your other comments, I think everyone deserves to live in peace.

Banning Maus is an attack on free speech. Proponents of the ban gave the reasons that the book contains inappropriate language and an illustration of a nude woman. Saying that someone can’t express themselves because someone else finds that expression objectionable is the definition of an attack on free speech. And, that’s exactly what is happening here.

There are two other issues.

One, with respect to Maus, the Holocaust itself is objectionable. And, people can’t learn about the Holocaust without being offended or made uncomfortable. So, the argument from proponents of the ban that there is some polite way to learn about the Holocaust makes no sense.

Two, the lessons of history can only work if people see the events and their essential nature clearly. If some other motivation becomes the priority then you haven’t learned history, you learned nonsense. History is taught so that students don’t make the same deadly mistakes. And, if a school board prioritizes polite language over history then they are dooming their children and everyone else who remains ignorant because of that decision.

My point in starting this thread was to show that free speech is not just a pretext for the far right, and that there are credible concerns about free speech from progressives.

I hope that others contribute their concerns about, or examples of, attacks on free speech to this thread or the free-speech tag.

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regarding Maus, i suppose i wouldn’t vehemently argue that it isn’t an attack on free speech, but i’m not seeing the difference between a parent making a decision for their children or the school making a decision for children with the authority ultimately granted to them by the parents - note that i’m not opining on whether banning the book was right or wrong

“It has become impossible to explain to people fed fantastic tales for decades that what they have read or heard on television just does not correspond to the truth.” – Leon DeGrelle, in The Enigma of Hitler, p.3

you’re making a very inaccurate assumption if you’re assuming i’m far right

of course it’s a fact - even though the definition of the word is narrow and clear, most people, including my self, see it as an umbrella term that encompasses many events, including the persecution of some of Germany’s Jews - let’s not forget that Hitler and his sister had Jewish friends, nor that he was particularly fond of a little Jewish girl that shared his birthday, nor that tens of thousands of Jews fought in Hitler’s army, some rising to very high ranks, nor that there was a functioning synagogue in the capital city of Berlin until it was bombed by the allies during the very last days of the war

by that umbrella definition, not a single person on planet Earth can possibly make a coherent argument that the holocaust didn’t happen, but do you recognize what you did here? because i vehemently dispute the gas chamber fairy tale, you essentially labeled me as a ‘holocaust denier’ - not picking on you at all, but that’s an important point to make because anyone disputing the official history, even when they possess the facts to back their claims, is stamped with that label

further examples of the suppression of free speech…

Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Brazil, Bulgaria, Canada, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Slovakia, Spain, Switzerland, Ukraine, United Kingdom, United States, European Union

…all of the above have either made it illegal to question the official holocaust narrative, or are on the path to doing so, including the United States which has persecuted historical revisionists

Germar Rudolf, a German chemist, was sent to prison for presenting a scientific opinion in a German court

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This is interesting and I’d be interested to hear more if you have any links or blogs. Is the law (fatwa) new? It was my understanding Iran’s nuclear program had been under development for decades. (Otherwise, what was the point of Stuxnet?) Feel free to reply over DM if you want as I think this may be a little off topic.

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hi Sanguine - i think you may be confusing Iran’s nuclear enrichment program for power generation and medical instruments with a nuclear weapons program

you are of course correct in that Iran has been enriching uranium for a long time (i don’t know how long) but they are doing so for peaceful purposes and multiple inspections have confirmed this again and again and again

the fatwa that forbids Iran from developing nuclear weapons is not new at all - it’s a religious thing - BUT, there is a provision in the religion that allows for changing the rules of the game if conditions require it (external threats)

if Iran wanted the bomb, they could have had it weeks or months ago

so no, Iran doesn’t have “the bomb”, but Israel, and its puppet government in the U.S., can certainly create the conditions necessary for Iran to reconsider

Iran needs 20% enrichment for medical purposes, but it seems, and i’m not positive, that they’ve been enriching up to 60% which is just one short hop away from weapons grade … so it seems to me that they are keeping all options on the table while hoping that the U.S. will come to its senses … ha ha

there’s no hope that Israel will come to its senses since it never had any - Israel is a terrorist state and they intend to bomb and slaughter their way to expanding their borders (Greater Israel Project) and have the U.S. do as much of killing for them as possible, as the obedient U.S. has done since World War I

one of the people to listen to regarding Iran and its nuclear program is the same ex-Marine and UN weapons inspector who blew the whistle on Iraq’s non-existent WMD’s, Scott Ritter (see here also)

Nima Alkhorshid and Judge Napalitano interview Ritter very often, as well as a bunch of ex-CIA guys, military analysts, diplomats, economists, former high ranking military men and woman, etc., and the consensus among all of them is solid: Iran does not want the bomb. full stop.

i would also highly recommend Larry Johnson, former CIA and a very nice guy with some high level contacts close to Putin and Trump - he’s on BitChute, substack and has his own website, https://sonar21.com/ … and while i’m at it, Rachel Blevins as well if you want shorter format commentary and interviews

…this may be a little off topic.

grant so :slight_smile: , but people need to hear it in my opinion - it is largely because of Israel and the dingbats in D.C. that the entire world is in an extremely dangerous position at present - once the Big Red Button is pushed, there’s no stopping what will follow (there’s no such a thing as a “limited” nuclear exchange)

good news is that some of the people in D.C. realize what’s at stake and are trying to prevent war with Iran, a confrontation that the U.S. would almost certainly lose, absent a ground invasion and/or nukes - because of U.S. crap, Iran has been preparing for war with the U.S. for ~2 decades and, very contrary to western opinion, they are armed to the teeth with highly advanced weaponry … plus they share a defense pact with Russia, who also possesses hyper-sonics

the solution to all of this retarded nonsense is simple:

  • the US must stop arming Israel and thus contributing to genocide (~51,000 in Gaza alone, dead), the expansion of its borders and further conflicts in the ME
  • Trump “i’ll end the war in 24 hrs.” must stop arming Ukraine and providing them with intelligence
  • Israel must be reigned in and it must be held accountable for its undeclared nuclear weapons (J. Kennedy tried to do that and it didn’t work out too well for him)

the solutions are simple and the first 2 can be accomplished with Trump picking up the phone

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Thanks. I think I’d forgotten that Uranium enrichment has purposes other than for making weapons, and combined with the (mostly western, American) framing that I’ve been exposed to from reading about Stuxnet, I just assumed that was its purpose.

Lately I’ve been fascinated with Iran’s political/cultural perspective, mostly just because it’s so “different” from anything I’ve seen before. I find it admirable that any state would intentionally limit its weapons capabilities for any religious or ethical reason. I have never seen a western country do this. Though, if what you are saying is true, perhaps Iran will forego this limitation.

I agree these are immensely important topics, though these days I find myself struggling to stay up to date on much of any political/geopolitical topic. I think I need more hours in the day or something.

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Trump supporters don’t understand Free Speech

The Trump administration continues to arrest and deport people for criticizing Israel’s genocidal atrocities in Gaza and the US empire’s support for it - and Trump’s supporters continue to applaud these abuses. To call this hypocritical after the way these people spent years rending their garments about the erosion of the First Amendment would be a massive understatement.

on a personal note, i get why people “voted” (voted=permitted to choose from 2 psychopathic Zionist dingbats) for Trump and indeed, the administration is doing some good things - dot dot dot - while simultaneously doing some extremely bad and dangerous things that his supporters were vehemently opposed to when it wasn’t ‘their guy’ in the WH who was doing the exact same things and the attack on the 1st amendment is one glaring example

Congress, the Senate and the President are literally bought and paid for by that little ethnic state across the pond that one dare not criticize and it seems they are rather disappointed with the awakening that is taking place, and so it seems free speech in the U.S. has got to go, but that’s a bit of a problem, presumably because of the amendment that comes right after the first one

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i don’t know much about the culture, other than Iran hasn’t succumbed to the degenerate, socially corrosive nonsense that the U.S. and Europe have - the young people seem to be intelligent and well educated from what i’ve seen, though comparing them to kids in the U.S. is a pretty low bar

the U.S. is an arms dealer - you can find a free copy of “The Report From Iron Mountain” on archive.org i’m sure - it explains a lot about the war, finance and state power - i remember one particularly impressionable quote which i might butcher slightly: “the state’s ability to control its subjects is directly related to its war-making power”

full disclosure, the authenticity of the Iron Mt. report is debated, but if you read it and compare it to the world around you, you’ll likely see that it doesn’t matter whether it’s authentic or not

before all this crap went down with Ukraine and Israel, i was enjoying a very long break from reading any news - something i do now and then when it gets to be too much

perhaps you might find some comfort in doing the same - it’s really quite amazing how quickly the world reverted back to a ‘normal’ state for me when i quit worrying about all this stuff … and don’t worry, the chaos will still be waiting for you when you return :slight_smile:

i should mention that we seem to have some friends in very high places, so to speak, that may have our backs regarding nuclear weapons and they’ve demonstrated their ability to interfere, when necessary, on multiple occasions

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Glad I’m not the only one :slightly_smiling_face:

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yeah, there really is something to that “ignorance is bliss” thing - i often wonder whether i’d walk the same path if i had to do it over again because once you learn it, you can’t un-learn it, so i kind of feel like a hostage of my own making sometimes

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Gordon Bennett :person_facepalming:

If people who are interested in Mojeek come to the official forum and see content like this being openly shared, they will make assumptions about the Mojeek target demographic that will strongly discourage them from wanting to use or be associated with Mojeek.

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I can’t speak for everyone, but I appreciate that Mojeek’s forum includes some alternative, unpopular viewpoints. It’s refreshing, and even if they’re not all right, it’s at least a sign that I’m speaking to real people and not bots or people who’ve had their behavior modified in very specific ways, which cannot be said of major social media platforms (Reddit, Facebook, Twitter, etc.).

I would hope that people who come here actually take the time to think/read for themselves and form their own opinion. Something being shared here does not imply all of the rest of us and/or the admins agree with it. Let’s be adults.

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Digital censorship amid aggression: Google disables Street View in West Bank

As Israel’s military campaign intensifies across the occupied West Bank, tech giant Google is under fire for disabling its “Street View” technology in the northern parts of the territory.

Rights groups warn that the move further obstructs documentation of violations and shields Israeli actions from global scrutiny.

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The posts in question are sufficiently far from acceptable discourse that they would be illegal in several European countries under their current holocaust denial legislation.

To my knowledge, the UK isn’t one of those countries, but that doesn’t mean that it’s wise (or nice) for Mojeek to host material like this, in what is presumably meant to be an online community for people who are interested in Mojeek.

This is outside the scope of “let’s be adults”. Stuff like this is depressingly common in the world, and the idea that it’s refreshing to find it in the official Mojeek forum is probably quite a niche one, which isn’t going to resonate with many potential users of Mojeek.

Even setting aside the examples of holocaust denial and anti-Semitism that I quoted, there are wider issues around misinformation and conspiracy theories, especially since the pandemic, which normal people do care about. That includes a lot of normal people who are alarmed by tech giant monopolies, who are feeling oppressed by the algorithm and might be open to trying an independent alternative like Mojeek.

Sadly, if the official forum is allowed to fill up with content like this, Mojeek will alienate most of its potential user base. At best, it will be seen as a search engine for the tin foil hat brigade; at worst, it will be seen as one of the dark corners of the web where bad actors find each other.

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Thank you @Stuart for expressing your concerns. There are 3 laws in the UK concerning this so it is complex and, of course, IANAL. Still as I understand it such laws only apply when actions cross the line into inciting hatred, harassment, threats or abuse targeted at Jewish people due to their religion or perceived religion.

Our mission here at Mojeek, is providing and preserving the freedom to seek, so the topic of free speech is a relevant one to be posted here. Still this is not really the place where we should be debating topics which are not directly related to search, at such length.

We know from direct communication that users of Mojeek typically come from all parts of the political spectrum. What they have in common is a desire to understand how things really are rather than bowing to consensus.

Evidence beats opinion, but exchange of opinion can lead us there.

Please do not post long messages here; they are best made elsewhere. Debate here should note the heading.

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The second paragraph that I quoted (the one beginning “no one can argue…”) is pure antisemitism, since the author is inviting the reader to consider whether there’s a “logical reason” why Jews faced persecution throughout history and scoffing at the notion that people in 60+ countries throughout history wouldn’t have had a reason to be antisemitic.

In any case, if you’ve read the posts in question and are happy to let them stand in this forum because you believe they fall within the bounds of free speech, please delete my account for me, because I can’t see an option to do so in the settings.

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that’s up to the forum administrators to decide - this is their house, not yours

that such speech could get one into hot water, depending on where they reside, is of course true - i listed the countries having laws in place that restrict free speech, or are considering legislation

you didn’t read what i wrote - i’m not a “holocaust denier” - there is no such thing given that ‘holocaust’ is an umbrella term encompassing many events, as i’m sure you would agree … nor am i an anti-Semite which is nothing more than a disingenuous rubber stamp that is in no way specific to Jews

Semite
1 a : a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs

b : a descendant of these peoples

2 : a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic language

to @Colin - i was wondering how long it would be before my posts raised a fuss - i’ve now edited my posts, not to avoid being censored or banned, but because i knew darn well that i was very likely pushing the boundaries of what is acceptable here

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Secretary of HHS Kennedy Prohibits NIH Scientists from Criticizing Israel

The National Institute of Health (NIH), which is part of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services run by Secretary of HHS Robert F. Kennedy Jr., has just published a notice threatening U.S. scientists and medical researchers funded by NIH with losing their funding if they criticize Israel.

Over 100 rabbis, cantors in Chicago area condemn Trump for crackdown on pro-Palestine campus protests

The punitive measures, implemented since early March, are designed to curb protest rallies by students across the US held against Israel’s genocidal war in the besieged Gaza Strip and in solidarity with Palestinians suffering in the war-ravaged territory since October 2023.

FBI, local police raid homes of pro-Palestine activists in Michigan

US law enforcement officials, including the FBI and local agencies, have executed a series of search warrants at multiple homes of pro-Palestine activists linked to the University of Michigan.